"Interview: James Jones," by Steve Pezman, ran in the November 1974 issue of SURFER. Jones was 21. This version has been slightly edited and shortened.

Yeah! I really like the way Joey surfs. He was out just this last swell at Three’s, and I’ve seen him surf there a lot. Probably Phil Edwards, Cabell, and Jock Sutherland are the three guys who influenced me most, and that I respect the most. Phil ’cause he’s so casual. He had an understanding of surfing 

 it. And also because he was so innovative. First guy to do a bottom turn; first guy to do a lot of stuff. He was really creative.

He’s fast and he’s flexible, and he’s got the ultimate style. The way he surfs is really exciting. I mean, when you see him hit his turn, it stokes you.

Cabell really has a lot of mental focus. When he does something, he’s a one-hundred-percent into it. And he does a lot of things— sailing, skiing, surfing, climbing. He seems to have very definite goals as far as the way he wants to surf. He’s always had boards that were a bit different than anyone else was riding. Years ago, he was into lightness, before anybody else. And, of course, he surfs like he skis. Sort of knees together. They collapse on each other a lot. He uses that as kind of a low gravity point from where the rest of his body kind of pendulums. He also has very precise use of his arms and hands. It’s like he’s skiing around his poles.

You might say he’s a very intelligent surfer. His surfing has a lot of thought in it.

He’s versatile. He’s the ultimate versatile surfer. Frontside, backside, switching stance. He can ride 30-foot waves; he can ride 3-foot mush. In my formative years, he was 

 major influence on me. I’d see him do everything! And I always wished I could do everything.

When we talked before, you mentioned that surfing could be a complete and fulfilling lifestyle, something ongoing.

Everyone used to tell me surfing can’t be a career. You might be really stoked when you’re young enough to do it, but after that you’d be a derelict. And I was seeing people who had gone that route, gotten to the age where they were supposed to be derelicts, and they weren’t. They were more stoked than the people who had gone the straight route. The people that went the straight route had their houses and their cars and their career. But they weren’t stoked. They drank a lot and had ulcers and all kinds of problems. But the people that were surfing every day, they were healthy and tanned and happy. And they didn’t care if they didn’t have as big a car as the guy across the street.

What is it about surfing that can be so fulfilling? I mean, obviously you find some depth in it. The act of riding a wave itself is very simple, but you can make as complex a challenge of it as you want.

The first thing I really liked about it was that it was an escape from the pressures and games of society. I could go out in the water and leave all the land trips behind. Like, if you had a really miserable day where everything went wrong, you could go out surfing and forget that you had a bad day. It was a good way to release tension.

Sure. I think being dedicated to something, to have some sort of force in your life that is your main focus—it could be anything. For me, it’s surfing. It’s something to focus on so that you’re not always drifting. I think it gives you some sort of meaning.

There are so many other aspects that become a part of it, too: the travel, meeting people, experiencing new things all the time.

Yeah, there’s almost infinite room for expansion as far as surfing’s concerned. Naturally, I’m biased because I’m a surfer, but I think surfing is the most righteous sport! It’s so much more exciting than the usual skill games. Like when I was in school, I did all those things, and they’re fun and healthy and everything . . . .

Like, I don’t know, it may sound trite, but there’s something cosmic about it. Like if you flash on a wave: a wave is energy. That’s all it is. Energy moving through the water. The water doesn’t move, the water stays there. Just the energy moves. And when the wave breaks, the energy is released. It changes form from potential to kinetic. The energy is going through a transformation in the act of the wave breaking. And when you get inside that spot, when you’re in the tube—I don't know, it’s almost like you can absorb a bit of that energy. At least you’re aware of it all around you. It’s a flash. Cosmic. And you never get that sort of a flash when you're playing football.

You notice if you stop surfing for a while, you forget that aspect. Because if you’re not feeling it, the memory of the intensity of that feeling begins to diminish, and you forget why you did it. And then all of a sudden, if you go surfing one day and if you’re lucky enough to feel it once, you just get a sudden flood of remembering why you were so excited about surfing in the past.

I don’t know. I haven’t really stopped for more than a couple of days at a time since I was a kid.

Lately, I've been trying to surf every day. It depends on the waves. Sometimes I’ll go out three times a day, even if it's absolutely miserable. I’ll paddle out and catch a wave or two and come in.

I’ve been to Australia, California, France, and Africa.

So you have a fairly good perspective of the sport on an international level. How do you feel about energy centers as far as the sport is concerned? Where do you feel it's happening?

I don’t know. I haven't been to Australia since ’70, but when I was there, people were definitely really progressive. Really competitive.

We’ve seen films of Australians recently. I don’t know, but I get a feeling that California surfing is just a bit stale right now compared to Australia.

Well, like I said, Australian people are really competitive. It’s really a competitive nation. They have a real go-for-it attitude. Hawaii, you know, is like the home of surfing, and it’s always been defined as having the best waves and the best surfers. And I think the Australians, because they’ve always had this—it's like the Avis trip; we’re #2, so we try harder. I mean, the Australians really want to be known as being on top. I remember a few years ago you ran an article by John Witzig, saying “We’re Tops Now” (SURFER Vol. 8, No. 2). The Australians will really work for it till they get there. But I’m gonna be saying Hawaii is what’s happening. If Australia ever gets to where everyone thinks, if they're what’s happening—it’ll be interesting to see what they do with it, to see if they fade back once they get it.

When you say the Australians are aggressive, you’d probably agree that their surfing reflects that. They do a lot of squirting. And their boards frequently—I think surfboards are really the key to what a country or an area is doing, in terms of surfing. With the Aussies, they usually go to extremes. All the things that we kind of cycle in and out of then step back from. Long to short, thick to thin, wide to narrow. They seem to go to further extremes in each direction. Like a couple year ago, it seemed 5-foot boards were average in Australia, while the average in California was in the long 6’s and Hawaii was probably the same. Of course, the further you go to the extreme, the more you find out about it. The wider you go, the more you realize what wide means. If you go through the extremes, maybe you know more.

It’s that old saying. You don't know how far you can go until you lose it. You don't know how wide is wide enough until you know how wide is too wide. But going back to the Australians, I think, like even in South Africa. the South African surfers and the Australians are really similar. The reason that they have that sort of style is like it’s just evolved from the kind of waves they have. Their waves are the kind where the speed’s all at the top. And to get up into that speed, you have to be constantly turning and pumping. Whereas in Hawaii, the thing’s so big and fast that you've got the momentum and you basically have an excess of speed to where you can be going just really fast and be casual. The Hawaiian style evolved out of the waves. Same for the Australian’s style.

Waves influence board design, and boards control the surfing.

How does a surfer go about building a style? What are your thoughts about having like a 12- to 15-foot wave to work with, versus, say, a six-foot California wave?

I think that to build a style, you have to accept that you’re already used to a particular wave, and kinda have to know exactly how it’s going to break. And you have to know what moves you’re going to make before you can pull them off with style. I mean, you have to have the wave down and you have to have your maneuvers down. You have to have it all wired before you can actually be conscious of how you’re using your hands or legs.

Do you think a surfer should even be conscious of I those things?

What do you think about this? That style should be a purely functional thing. Like the movement of arms, in essence, directs your body weight in order to make your board go where you want it to go, and that's pretty much it. In other words, a truly beautiful style is the most efficient. There are people out there who seem to be almost stylized to the extreme.

Yeah, for sure you can overdo style. On the other hand, maybe it's just a different trip. Like the difference between rock dancing and ballet. It takes longer to learn a more disciplined form of movement, a higher level of ability.

Have you felt the speed feeling you get in Hawaii anywhere else?

Just in brief flashes. Like when I was in South Africa, there was one day when it was eight feet, and I caught 20 waves and one felt just like Sunset, while the other 19 felt just like South Africa. You get it every once in a while, but nowhere as consistently.

What are you into as far as surfboards these days?

Just really functional boards. No gimmicks. My boards are almost like stock boards; something you'd buy off the rack.

When you say "gimmick," what do you mean?

Let’s say that I’m into classic standard surfboard design. I like speed, and I like edges. I like a board that holds in really well. I don’t want to get into details of design and stuff like that. But what you ultimately want is a board that lets you surf the wave, not the board.

[Looking at a board in the corner] Is this a board you shaped for South Africa?

I shaped it for summer in Hawaii, with Africa in the back of my mind. But a board that works in Hawaii probably won’t work anywhere else. Like, to me, California, Australia and South Africa all seem similar. The Continental Shelf I guess is what does it. But yeah, that board worked well in Africa.

[Laughs] You should glass your canceled prize check from the Gunston 500 to your deck. Make it your sticker.

Actually, for the contest, my boards never got to South Africa. They were lost by the airlines, and I had to borrow boards all through the contest.

Pan Am! And I had a really hard time trying to track them down in South Africa 'cause the phone system in South Africa is a government-owned thing. It's not like here where you pick up the phone and can dial direct around the world. To call the next town you have to call the operator, and she calls you back when she makes the connection. It takes half an hour to call down the street. You can walk it faster. Communications are a lot better here in the United States. It’s a thing we take for granted.

Oh! Well, I’d like to see a pro circuit happen. I’d like to see Peru in February, Australia in April, Africa in June and July, France in late summer. Then maybe California in late fall and then back to Hawaii for the winter. Imagine if each contest offered enough money so if you were consistently making the finals, you could pay your expenses and make a few dollars on top of that.

I think if the circuit actually came together like that, and if surfers in general wanted to ride the same board that the pro tour winners rode, boardmakers might be able to support the travel expenses for two or three team riders.

And then the team rider could keep his winnings or pay back the expenses or something like that.

I think if there was a circuit, there’d be no limit to the potential for sponsorships and advertising deals, especially if television got into it.

It probably needs to be an objectively judged contest for that to be practical. Because it’s too political. When a lot of money becomes involved and you have a deal like diving or gymnastics, where six judges stand up and hold up a score, and one has 4 and another one has 9, and another 6. You know, it doesn’t mean anything.

It really doesn’t mean that you were the best surfer out.

Everybody knows that! Everybody knows contests aren't accurate. Contests are contests, and surfing is surfing. Two different things. To me, it’s two kinds of surfing.

 Of being able to measure speed between two set points?

But even then, what would you end up with? Who went the fastest? What does that mean? Is fast best?

Uh, well—it’s sort of a subjective thing.

Exactly! You’re not quite sure. You could tell me what you thought, but if an objective method was used, you would 

. And you could attack [competition] it in a much more direct fashion.

But I think to specialize it to make it more objective makes it even less of who was actually a better surfer. It becomes just who did a certain thing on a certain day. Who went fastest. Pretty soon you’d have a prize for who stepped back and forth the most times.

Then you like the present subjective format, with 0 to 20 points scored on each wave?

I think that’s about as close as you’re gonna get. I don’t think you’re ever gonna get a system that accurately judges the difference between different surfers. Like, I know in the finals in all the contests in Hawaii last year, six guys go out and everybody rips in a different way. Who won?

You're okay with that? You feel you'd be lucky often enough in that circumstance?

If there was a contest to see who goes the fastest for a lot of money, winner take all, would you spend a hundred dollars to enter it?

Oh yeah! If there was a contest a lot of money, I’d spend a hundred dollars to enter it. Sure. Even if it was to see who could paddle backwards the fastest. I suppose that sounds a little commercial. But if you can get a few dollars in something like that, it gives you more time to get away on your own and surf the way you want to surf.

Have there been any East Coast surfers in the Islands that you feel have done the job?

Jeff Crawford surfs well. Aside from him, I'm not aware of too many others.

I heard Crawford was outstanding at the Pipeline.

He was. He surfed as well as Rory or Gerry or Jackie Dunn. There are about ten goofyfoots that all surf the place about the same. Pipeline’s a really straight tube, and if you take off in the same spot and you’re facing the wave, you’re going to get almost an identical ride, one after the other. It's that perfect. And the guys I mentioned, plus Tom Stone, Jock, a few others—people like that are all getting in there. They say Gerry is the ultimate because he gets a shade further back than anybody else. So when I say that Jeff surfed well, he surfed it the same as all these other guys when no one expected that he would.

Where are your favorite spots in the Islands?

Oh, well. Pipeline and Sunset are pretty juicy. I used to like Velzyland quite a bit, but you guys exposed it.

Exposed Velzyland? What kind of policy do you think we should have as far as that goes?

I don't know whether it’s good or bad or in between, but it just seems that there is some sort of cause and effect relationship.

I think the search for surf is one of the best parts of the sport. Like if you see someone from another spot, you immediately pump him for “What’s it like?” and “Where have you surfed?” And if his description stokes you, you go, So it’s like in a sense the magazine tries to be like two guys talking together. But the part that abstracts it is that 600,000 people read every issue.

I would agree that traveling and discovering new spots being is exciting, for sure, and it broadens your perspectives and all that. But I find that I surf my best when I’m at a spot I really know, and I’m super comfortable in the water.

Whereas, like in Africa, the guys all sit on the inside, you know.

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